Curse

IndyCC · Jul 05, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Pardon me for getting all economics minded here but I am trying to figure out what point I need to stop putting points into swordsmanship. From what I have read it is somewhere around 12-13 points in sword.

So I am trying to do a cost benefit analysis to figure out where the marginal cost (MC) meets the marginal utility (MU) or benefit to figure out how high exactly I should take this skill.

To get to 16 it costs 97 attribute points and 75 health (assumes 12 with attribute levels, superior rune, and +1 helm)

below 16 there are several combinations but here are two basic ones. Side note TC stands for total cost. All cost calculations assume helm to go from lvl 0 to 1 and minor rune to go from 1 to 2. Since these both effectively only cost gold I found the cost to negligible to include.

The "I want attibute points" combination
16 - TC 97 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 20 Attb. Pts 0 Health
15 - TC 77 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 16 Attb. Pts 0 Health
14 - TC 61 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 13 Attb. Pts 0 Health
13 - TC 48 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 11 Attb. Pts 0 Health
12 - TC 37 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 9 Attb. Pts 0 Health
11 - TC 28 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 7 Attb. Pts 0 Health
10 - TC 21 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 6 Attb. Pts 0 Health
9 - TC 15 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 5 Attb. Pts 0 Health
8 - TC 10 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 4 Attb. Pts 0 Health
7 - TC 6 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 3 Attb. Pts 0 Health
6 - TC 3 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 2 Attb. Pts 0 Health
5 - TC 1 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 1 Attb. Pts 0 Health
4 - TC 0 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 0 Attb. Pts 25 Health
3 - TC 0 Attb. Pts 50 Health - MC 0 Attb. Pts 50 Health
2 - TC 0 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 0 Attb. Pts 0 Health
1 - TC 0 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 0 Attb. Pts 0 Health

The "I want health" combination
16 - TC 97 Attb. Pts 75 Health - MC 0 Attb. Pts 25 Health
15 - TC 97 Attb. Pts 50 Health - MC 0 Attb. Pts 50 Health
14 - TC 97 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 20 Attb. Pts 0 Health
13 - TC 77 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 16 Attb. Pts 0 Health
12 - TC 61 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 13 Attb. Pts 0 Health
11 - TC 48 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 11 Attb. Pts 0 Health
10 - TC 37 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 9 Attb. Pts 0 Health
9 - TC 28 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 7 Attb. Pts 0 Health
8 - TC 21 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 6 Attb. Pts 0 Health
7 - TC 15 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 5 Attb. Pts 0 Health
6 - TC 10 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 4 Attb. Pts 0 Health
5 - TC 6 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 3 Attb. Pts 0 Health
4 - TC 3 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 2 Attb. Pts 0 Health
3 - TC 1 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 1 Attb. Pts 0 Health
2 - TC 0 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 0 Attb. Pts 0 Health
1 - TC 0 Attb. Pts 0 Health - MC 0 Attb. Pts 0 Health

So because of these varying combination to get to 16 and pinpoint the exact MC depends on your character. I am not sure what the most popular route is for allocating points but I would assume since attribute points are "rarer" than health that people would lean more toward the "I want attibute points" combination simply for calculations and arguement sake.

One thing to note as people seem to debate a lot between going from major runes to superior, that the marginal cost of going from minor to major is higher than the marginal cost of going from major to superior. So if you have decided to go major paying 50 health to get 1 point, then paying 25 health for 1 point should be seen as a deal and you should nab it. Yes your total cost is higher (75 health over 50) but econonics logic says if you are willing to pay 50 health for 1 point that you would be more than willing to pay 25 for one point. So if you are going from minor to major, you may as well go superior. So that is something for you all to chew on, granted then gold may or may not become an issue. How many superior runes you take on is another matter all together, putting a superior rune in everything and going from 500 health to 200 will likly give you the extra damage for about the three seconds you live.

Now onto MU. To pinpoint the MU is even more difficult because depending on which skills are equiped will determine how high each of the green numbers in the skills description moves, meaning the benifit for the next highest skill level. What I have done at this point is calculate a base damage MU. I dont fully understand how critical hits are applied so I didnt do that. Additionally since everyones skill bar is different I didnt calculate MU for that.

First I assume you are a level 20 character with a max damage sword which hits 15-22. The average damage is (15+22)/2 = 18.5. Since the refire rate is 1.3 seconds I took that average damage and diveded by the refire rate to get average damage per second which is approxamently 13.9 (13.9098....). This is my basis for the MU calculations that follow, which also does not take into account the level of the enemy (player or mob), the AL of the enemy, any armor penetration, etc.

16 - 115.0% dmg applied = 16.0 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.6
15 - 111.0% dmg applied = 15.4 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.6
14 - 107.0% dmg applied = 14.9 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.4
13 - 104.0% dmg applied = 14.5 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.6
12 - 100.0% dmg applied = 13.9 average dmg applied/sec - MU 1.2
11 - 91.7% dmg applied = 12.8 average dmg applied/sec - MU 1.1
10 - 84.1% dmg applied = 11.7 average dmg applied/sec - MU 1.0
9 - 77.1% dmg applied = 10.7 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.9
8 - 70.7% dmg applied = 9.8 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.8
7 - 64.8% dmg applied = 9.0 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.7
6 - 59.5% dmg applied = 8.3 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.7
5 - 54.5% dmg applied = 7.6 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.6
4 - 50.0% dmg applied = 7.0 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.6
3 - 45.9% dmg applied = 6.4 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.5
2 - 42.0% dmg applied = 5.8 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.5
1 - 38.6% dmg applied = 5.4 average dmg applied/sec - MU 0.4
0 - 35.6% dmg applied = 5.0

Something to note here is that at an attribute level of 12 you reach the highest marginal utility for base damage. That normally, but not always, tends to be the point where MC=MU because you reach diminishing marginal returns.

Since skills and criticals are not accounted for here what are people coming up with as the point where MC=MU and please tell me how you came to that conclusion. I am currently at 12 and debating if 13 is really worth it. Then when I hit 13 i will wonder about 14. So I'm trying to generate some discussion to put the mind of all to ease.

The end conclusion of this thread hopefully will be able to apply to all weapon attributes but obviously not things like strength, expertise, and probably not even magic attritbutes.

Dreamsmith · Jul 06, 2005, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Have you read this?

IMHO, putting anything more than 12 points into a weapon attribute is a mistake. You're loosing a lot of something else (health and/or points in other attributes) that would do more to benefit you than a few paltry percentage points of extra damage. You get the most bang for your buck with 10 natural points, a minor rune and a helm.

Xellos · Jul 06, 2005, 03:09 AM // 03:09

But besides the natural deteriorating increase, you get more criticals, and your skills gain more power.

Enigmatics · Jul 06, 2005, 01:53 PM // 13:53

You'll need around 12 of that weapon's attribute to do normal damage -more is useful if you specifically want the damage for your own purposes.

Schorny · Jul 06, 2005, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Don't forget the skills.
The increse 12 -> 13 or 13->14 isn't much for the pure damage output of your weapon. But you have skills linked to this attribute that can benefit greatly...

Xellos · Jul 06, 2005, 02:23 PM // 14:23

By this logic, a ranger/warrior at 12 hammer wouldn't be so far off a warrior with 16 hammer. This is clearly not the case.

Tellani Artini · Jul 06, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

Don't forget the skills.
The increse 12 -> 13 or 13->14 isn't much for the pure damage output of your weapon. But you have skills linked to this attribute that can benefit greatly...

So set weapon at 12 and strength over 12, and use strength skills instead of weapon skills. Strength's armor penetration returns don't diminish over 12. Same with expertise; 13 gets you 5 energy skills costing 2, and 14 gets you 10 energy skills costing 4.

Xellos · Jul 06, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

The last time I heard of a warrior depend on strength skills to kill, they got less kills then the healer.

IndyCC · Jul 06, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Updated the original post based on comments in this thread. Hopefully that will generate some more discussion.

Come on guys lets not try to make this into a strength vs tactic debate, warriors vs ranger debate, or a sword vs. axe vs. hammer debate. I am trying to gather information ideally to help everyone with allocating weapon based attributes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

You get the most bang for your buck with 10 natural points, a minor rune and a helm.

This does seem to be more of the conclusion I am drawing near to. However, I would point out one thing that would differ, I would want the helm to be on a different attribute that I plan on taking above 12. The reason being the cost of going from 10 to 11 in sword is much cheaper than going from 11 to 12 in a different skill. So I would rather pay the 10 to 11 on both skills and throw the helm on whatever I want to go above 12. If you are taking nothing above 12 then this is in fact the conclusion I am begining to see.

Xellos · Jul 06, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Strength based skills are only good as support skills. Warriors Cunning, Warriors Endurance, Bulls Strike, such and such are the moves that you will be taking at all if you are speccing into strength or are truely relying on it.

For power though, let's take a example of strength skills vs mastery skills.

For strength, the best hitting move is obviously Power Attack, cheap, fast recharge, and easy to use. This move pulls up almost 30 damage. Wow eh?

Let's look at Pure Strike then for swords, you get over 30 damage, plus if your not in stance, you will always hit unless your blind. The recharge rate is something to be accounted for, but none the less it's very powerful.

Swift Chop has a bit less damage then Power Attack, but makes up for it in the fact that you can't block or evade without some kind of penalty.

Irresistible Blow takes the cake on this one. 32+ damage with evasion taking a hike, and knocking down blockers. Best yet, the recharge rate and energy cost is the exact same.

Unless your running a elite strength skill build, which most warriors don't, you'll be hard pressed to find a reason not to pump 16 into the weapon mastery. No one said you couldn't have like 9-11 strength, but to rely on it like it outdamages a weapon mastery is plain funny.

IndyCC · Jul 06, 2005, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Anyone have any ideas on how to calculate the marginal utility on skill increases from attribute level increases. I was thinking about taking the most common skill, sever artery, and looking how much the seconds of bleeding increases but I really dont have the money to buy a superior rune to get sword to 15 or 16 to find the exact numbers.

Additionally anyone have any ideas on marginal utility calculations for critical hits (this one I know is a bit foggy to everyone still).

Another idea I did have was to assume that the green number in the skills (I wish I had a name for this) increases evenly from the min to max number per attribute level and to assume the percentage to crit increases evenly per attribute level. Then base damage would become the only deciding factor making it seem like 12 is optimal. However, I am not sure if that is how skills and crits increase. Does anyone know on this?

Red Locust · Jul 07, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

But besides the natural deteriorating increase, you get more criticals, and your skills gain more power.

Didn't someone test this and post his results? Something about your attribute level not affecting critical hit rate or critical hit damage?

Anyways, like he said, going over 12 in an attribute increases your base damage and your skills' damage, and since you always try to squeeze in as much damage as possible, it's never a bad idea to go over 12 points.

Deathlord · Jul 07, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

I don't think its a bad idea to use superior/major runes of one attribute... a character needs to be unique in some way and therefore he needs to enhance it the best he can. If the limit is 16, then I say just make it 16. Health isn't a major issue compared to the benefit you get until you start losing more than 100 health for it. Best combo IMO is just Superior vig + One main superior rune while rest is minor.

IndyCC · Jul 07, 2005, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Hitting the max just simply for the sake of hitting the max to do more damage is simply not logical because there is a cost associated with it. The logical thing to figure out is if going from lvl X to level X+1 provides more incremental value than the incremental cost. As soon as it provides equal value then you stop, if you then begin paying more than the return value then that is not logical. That is why I started this thread is to figure out the optimal point in sword, later realizing it can be applied to all weapon based attributes. So when you say that you think everyone needs to go to 16 in sword give some more reason than simply saying it is because you want to do the most damage possible. You are totally ignoring the cost associated with that added damage. Esspecially since frankly with a sword you are not the highest damage dealer, the elementalist still is.

Think of this another way. If you were in charge of operations at a manufactureing firm and you told your boss the way we are going to make money is simply to produce as much product as possible ignoring inventory backlog, market conditions, cost per product, plant capacity, and price sensitivity. Chances are you would be ignored, probably even fired.

Ensign · Jul 07, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

There are a couple of other factors at work.

The first one is that there is very little to be gained from either very high Strengh or very high Tactics. With a few notable exceptions (level 13 Fear Me), most boosts to either Strength or Tactics give only a few percentage points or an extra second or so to a rarely used skill. Under normal circumstances, the bulk of your power and skill usage is going to come from your main weapon attribute, with some supplemental skills from either Strength or Tactics.

The second is that, in PvP, the value of a few more points of damage per hit can be immense, while the cost of a few maximum hit points on a Warrior is trivial. The ratios change as you get higher and the tradeoff becomes less favorable, but it's favorable nonetheless.

Now in PvE health has a much higher value for 'tanks', and a bit more damage really doesn't matter as long as you can hold out. There is probably is a good idea to stop at 10+2 on your weapon attribute and spread your points around to make your character a bit more well rounded. You can live with all minors just fine. You also get the side 'benefit' of being able to go 11+1 weapon / 10+2 Strength/Tactics and 10 in a secondary attribute, which lets you use one of the helms that doesn't look goofy.

If you're going to pump an attribute through the roof, though, it's going to be a weapon attribute in almost every case. Unless you're doing something decidedly non-combative with your character like Forge running.

Peace,
-CxE